Fair and Equal Ice-Time

General Talk about Minor Hockey in Canada and Hockey Canada Association
Guest

Re: Fair and Equal Ice-Time

Post by Guest »

Guest wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2024 10:53 am
Guest wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2024 10:40 am
Guest wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2024 10:24 am
Guest wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2024 10:10 am
Guest wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2024 10:00 am
Guest wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2024 9:51 am

Okay this is interesting, and please i want this conversation to be as civil as possible ....kids are in fact quitting b/c of this. 1. Sports sciences has 1000''s of studies that show this through hundreds of different sports, GLOBALLY! A coach with an apposing view of course would not want to accept that fact that they are responsible for having kids quit the sport.....if this was true it would make them a "bad person" so humans create another narrative that makes them feel good about themselves.

My good friend that went to the Quebec Peewee tournament at 13 and won it all, quit at 15, He was one of the top players in the tournament. He quit for this very reason, he grew late. I can attest he loved hockey more than anyone. Ironically, he switched sports, starting a new one at 16 and went on to be the best in Canada x5 and one of the best in the world.

Saying it is about Winning and coaching to win ..would you endorse PED's for your athlete's? Where is the line on winning? Bobby Clarke busting the ankle of the the best Russian Player....did they win?
Why has kids sports turned in to everything being fair and equal and you can't ruffle feathers and everyone gets a trophy and everyone should be happy to participate?

When you are paying $1000s of dollars, do you not want to win? Coaches at some levels are being paid, and if they want to keep that job, they need to win. A good coach will work with their team and come up with strategies to bring out the best skills in their players. Putting them in the right position. You have taken this a little to far with the PED comment. There is a scoreboard and what's on that scoreboard matters. Have your kid go play pick up somewhere if you don't think the score matters.

As for quitting, sure, coaches can have some responsibility but he can go elsewhere. He can change the situation. Why accept that you have to play for this guy? Did they talk to the association?

There a lot of reasons people quit and the majority quit not because of a coach but because of other interstests. (Other sports, girls, video games, hanging out with friends, etc)
"when you are paying 1000's of $$$, do you not want to win".......BINGO this is the whole reason....it is the parents paying thousands of dollars , you are correct, parents and coaches WANT TO WIN. Also backed by sports science, however what kids want (sport science data) they want to be in the action and be part of meaningful minutes ie they want to contribute! In fact 80% would rather be on a losing team and play then on. a winning team and sit.

The food for thought here is simple - WHO ARE WE DOING THIS FOR the kids or the parents and coaches? Let's be real!
in terms of why they are quitting, b/c they can "go elsewhere". They are quitting b/c an adult as told them (via holding them back) that they are not very good at hockey! Kids psychology is very black and white (why we have the young offenders act). Their brains have not developed the abstract ability that would question an adult as being wrong and yes go somewhere else. It is important not to apply ADULT rational, that is why education in developmental sports during G&D is so critical!
Yes this is correct. And even though this seems simple, most parents and a few bad coaches are not able to understand this.
Unfortunately it is more then a few bad coaches....we are currently in the midst of AAA hockey and it is roughly 90% of the coaches. It is way out of control, and unbelievable that there is no oversight!
your kid does not get ice because he does not deserve ice. Coaches control it all, if you do not like your son's ice time, leave to another team the following year. The best advice I can give you is, say NOTHING and tell your son to work harder to EARN more ice time. The entitlement of parents and kids is already too high. Want equal ice? go play house league with a 1:30 shift length.

You know what?. Why don't we do that instead. 1:30 buzzer .

Then, there will be a new issue that, allstar johnny is always first out the gate. Everyone is focused on Equal and guess what... that is not how life works. exceptional talent gets the lions share, IN EVERYTHING in life.

The issue is all the Unathletic talentless loser parents that complain. They think my johnny would be the best if he got that kids ice time, but in reality the kid stinks. They then create a wimp complainer, who no one can stand. the type of parent to rip their kid off the bench half way through and game or quit mid season.

we need to move on in society. stop pandering to these unspectacular humans that have a voice by being a victim. know your role, if you don't like your position work hard and take someones job.
Guest

Re: Fair and Equal Ice-Time

Post by Guest »

I watched OMHA finals last season (U11 tier 3) and our team was beating them like 6-0 and one of their wing pairs played maybe 10% of that game. I watched part of one of their other games and it was the same two kids twiddling their feet on the bench while the other two lines just kept rotating with eachother. Not sure why parents would keep bringing their kid to something like that, with Hotel prices and everything to go along with it.
Small towns you can't really go find another team, but damn, go play LL\HL if your getting 1 in 10 shifts on your current team.
Guest

Re: Fair and Equal Ice-Time

Post by Guest »

Guest wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2024 11:25 am
Guest wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2024 10:53 am
Guest wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2024 10:40 am
Guest wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2024 10:24 am
Guest wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2024 10:10 am
Guest wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2024 10:00 am

Why has kids sports turned in to everything being fair and equal and you can't ruffle feathers and everyone gets a trophy and everyone should be happy to participate?

When you are paying $1000s of dollars, do you not want to win? Coaches at some levels are being paid, and if they want to keep that job, they need to win. A good coach will work with their team and come up with strategies to bring out the best skills in their players. Putting them in the right position. You have taken this a little to far with the PED comment. There is a scoreboard and what's on that scoreboard matters. Have your kid go play pick up somewhere if you don't think the score matters.

As for quitting, sure, coaches can have some responsibility but he can go elsewhere. He can change the situation. Why accept that you have to play for this guy? Did they talk to the association?

There a lot of reasons people quit and the majority quit not because of a coach but because of other interstests. (Other sports, girls, video games, hanging out with friends, etc)
"when you are paying 1000's of $$$, do you not want to win".......BINGO this is the whole reason....it is the parents paying thousands of dollars , you are correct, parents and coaches WANT TO WIN. Also backed by sports science, however what kids want (sport science data) they want to be in the action and be part of meaningful minutes ie they want to contribute! In fact 80% would rather be on a losing team and play then on. a winning team and sit.

The food for thought here is simple - WHO ARE WE DOING THIS FOR the kids or the parents and coaches? Let's be real!
in terms of why they are quitting, b/c they can "go elsewhere". They are quitting b/c an adult as told them (via holding them back) that they are not very good at hockey! Kids psychology is very black and white (why we have the young offenders act). Their brains have not developed the abstract ability that would question an adult as being wrong and yes go somewhere else. It is important not to apply ADULT rational, that is why education in developmental sports during G&D is so critical!
Yes this is correct. And even though this seems simple, most parents and a few bad coaches are not able to understand this.
Unfortunately it is more then a few bad coaches....we are currently in the midst of AAA hockey and it is roughly 90% of the coaches. It is way out of control, and unbelievable that there is no oversight!
your kid does not get ice because he does not deserve ice. Coaches control it all, if you do not like your son's ice time, leave to another team the following year. The best advice I can give you is, say NOTHING and tell your son to work harder to EARN more ice time. The entitlement of parents and kids is already too high. Want equal ice? go play house league with a 1:30 shift length.

You know what?. Why don't we do that instead. 1:30 buzzer .

Then, there will be a new issue that, allstar johnny is always first out the gate. Everyone is focused on Equal and guess what... that is not how life works. exceptional talent gets the lions share, IN EVERYTHING in life.

The issue is all the Unathletic talentless loser parents that complain. They think my johnny would be the best if he got that kids ice time, but in reality the kid stinks. They then create a wimp complainer, who no one can stand. the type of parent to rip their kid off the bench half way through and game or quit mid season.

we need to move on in society. stop pandering to these unspectacular humans that have a voice by being a victim. know your role, if you don't like your position work hard and take someones job.
They're children you psycho.

And if you picked him for your team, you play him. You think he stinks? Then do your job and develop him, inspire him, motivate him, COACH HIM so that he's not a liability when he's on the ice. There's no buyers remorse.

And if you defy the rules and don't give him equal ice time, you'll get fired or you'll get punished and maybe you'll be the one to quit half way through the season.

How's that for "how life works"?

And parents reading this, here's the best advice that I can give. If the coach isn't giving your kid a fair amount of ice time, don't sit in silence, document it and report him.
Guest

Re: Fair and Equal Ice-Time

Post by Guest »

Guest wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2024 11:25 am
Guest wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2024 10:53 am
Guest wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2024 10:40 am
Guest wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2024 10:24 am
Guest wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2024 10:10 am
Guest wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2024 10:00 am

Why has kids sports turned in to everything being fair and equal and you can't ruffle feathers and everyone gets a trophy and everyone should be happy to participate?

When you are paying $1000s of dollars, do you not want to win? Coaches at some levels are being paid, and if they want to keep that job, they need to win. A good coach will work with their team and come up with strategies to bring out the best skills in their players. Putting them in the right position. You have taken this a little to far with the PED comment. There is a scoreboard and what's on that scoreboard matters. Have your kid go play pick up somewhere if you don't think the score matters.

As for quitting, sure, coaches can have some responsibility but he can go elsewhere. He can change the situation. Why accept that you have to play for this guy? Did they talk to the association?

There a lot of reasons people quit and the majority quit not because of a coach but because of other interstests. (Other sports, girls, video games, hanging out with friends, etc)
"when you are paying 1000's of $$$, do you not want to win".......BINGO this is the whole reason....it is the parents paying thousands of dollars , you are correct, parents and coaches WANT TO WIN. Also backed by sports science, however what kids want (sport science data) they want to be in the action and be part of meaningful minutes ie they want to contribute! In fact 80% would rather be on a losing team and play then on. a winning team and sit.

The food for thought here is simple - WHO ARE WE DOING THIS FOR the kids or the parents and coaches? Let's be real!
in terms of why they are quitting, b/c they can "go elsewhere". They are quitting b/c an adult as told them (via holding them back) that they are not very good at hockey! Kids psychology is very black and white (why we have the young offenders act). Their brains have not developed the abstract ability that would question an adult as being wrong and yes go somewhere else. It is important not to apply ADULT rational, that is why education in developmental sports during G&D is so critical!
Yes this is correct. And even though this seems simple, most parents and a few bad coaches are not able to understand this.
Unfortunately it is more then a few bad coaches....we are currently in the midst of AAA hockey and it is roughly 90% of the coaches. It is way out of control, and unbelievable that there is no oversight!
your kid does not get ice because he does not deserve ice. Coaches control it all, if you do not like your son's ice time, leave to another team the following year. The best advice I can give you is, say NOTHING and tell your son to work harder to EARN more ice time. The entitlement of parents and kids is already too high. Want equal ice? go play house league with a 1:30 shift length.

You know what?. Why don't we do that instead. 1:30 buzzer .

Then, there will be a new issue that, allstar johnny is always first out the gate. Everyone is focused on Equal and guess what... that is not how life works. exceptional talent gets the lions share, IN EVERYTHING in life.

The issue is all the Unathletic talentless loser parents that complain. They think my johnny would be the best if he got that kids ice time, but in reality the kid stinks. They then create a wimp complainer, who no one can stand. the type of parent to rip their kid off the bench half way through and game or quit mid season.

we need to move on in society. stop pandering to these unspectacular humans that have a voice by being a victim. know your role, if you don't like your position work hard and take someones job.
Too far gone to ever be rescued , good luck buddy!
Guest

Re: Fair and Equal Ice-Time

Post by Guest »

Guest wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2024 12:54 pm
Guest wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2024 11:25 am
Guest wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2024 10:53 am
Guest wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2024 10:40 am
Guest wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2024 10:24 am
Guest wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2024 10:10 am

"when you are paying 1000's of $$$, do you not want to win".......BINGO this is the whole reason....it is the parents paying thousands of dollars , you are correct, parents and coaches WANT TO WIN. Also backed by sports science, however what kids want (sport science data) they want to be in the action and be part of meaningful minutes ie they want to contribute! In fact 80% would rather be on a losing team and play then on. a winning team and sit.

The food for thought here is simple - WHO ARE WE DOING THIS FOR the kids or the parents and coaches? Let's be real!
in terms of why they are quitting, b/c they can "go elsewhere". They are quitting b/c an adult as told them (via holding them back) that they are not very good at hockey! Kids psychology is very black and white (why we have the young offenders act). Their brains have not developed the abstract ability that would question an adult as being wrong and yes go somewhere else. It is important not to apply ADULT rational, that is why education in developmental sports during G&D is so critical!
Yes this is correct. And even though this seems simple, most parents and a few bad coaches are not able to understand this.
Unfortunately it is more then a few bad coaches....we are currently in the midst of AAA hockey and it is roughly 90% of the coaches. It is way out of control, and unbelievable that there is no oversight!
your kid does not get ice because he does not deserve ice. Coaches control it all, if you do not like your son's ice time, leave to another team the following year. The best advice I can give you is, say NOTHING and tell your son to work harder to EARN more ice time. The entitlement of parents and kids is already too high. Want equal ice? go play house league with a 1:30 shift length.

You know what?. Why don't we do that instead. 1:30 buzzer .

Then, there will be a new issue that, allstar johnny is always first out the gate. Everyone is focused on Equal and guess what... that is not how life works. exceptional talent gets the lions share, IN EVERYTHING in life.

The issue is all the Unathletic talentless loser parents that complain. They think my johnny would be the best if he got that kids ice time, but in reality the kid stinks. They then create a wimp complainer, who no one can stand. the type of parent to rip their kid off the bench half way through and game or quit mid season.

we need to move on in society. stop pandering to these unspectacular humans that have a voice by being a victim. know your role, if you don't like your position work hard and take someones job.
They're children you psycho.

And if you picked him for your team, you play him. You think he stinks? Then do your job and develop him, inspire him, motivate him, COACH HIM so that he's not a liability when he's on the ice. There's no buyers remorse.

And if you defy the rules and don't give him equal ice time, you'll get fired or you'll get punished and maybe you'll be the one to quit half way through the season.

How's that for "how life works"?

And parents reading this, here's the best advice that I can give. If the coach isn't giving your kid a fair amount of ice time, don't sit in silence, document it and report him.
Lot to unpack here...........................

-just because you picked someone for your team, doesn't mean they are good, I know of multiple AA & BB teams where they had combined tryouts and for 32-34 spots, they had 37 tryout, you are basically taking the best of the worst to fill out your roster. Coaches try their best to hide them but during critical moments of the game, you're riding the pine. Parents needs to be more honest about this. Coaches will play their best kids in crucial situations.

-equal ice time at a competitive level does not compute for me, sorry, you have to earn your ice time. I get that you are paying $4000+ to play but it's competitive and there are standings so coaches, players, parents, all want to win. We have sort of taken winning out of all minor sports and you should be happy to be part of a team. Coaches reputations are on the line and you sure as heck would want him fired if he played everyone equally and lost every game

-the life lesson here is that nothing is given, everything is earned and that nothing is ever fair

-if there are issues with the coaches, you need to document it and send it to the president of your association but you must get other parents to document their concerns as well. Ran in to this this past year where at an annual meeting, multiple parents started complaining about a coach and the executive was dumbfounded because it was the first time hearing about it
Guest

Re: Fair and Equal Ice-Time

Post by Guest »

Guest wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2024 2:48 pm
Guest wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2024 12:54 pm
Guest wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2024 11:25 am
Guest wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2024 10:53 am
Guest wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2024 10:40 am
Guest wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2024 10:24 am

in terms of why they are quitting, b/c they can "go elsewhere". They are quitting b/c an adult as told them (via holding them back) that they are not very good at hockey! Kids psychology is very black and white (why we have the young offenders act). Their brains have not developed the abstract ability that would question an adult as being wrong and yes go somewhere else. It is important not to apply ADULT rational, that is why education in developmental sports during G&D is so critical!
Yes this is correct. And even though this seems simple, most parents and a few bad coaches are not able to understand this.
Unfortunately it is more then a few bad coaches....we are currently in the midst of AAA hockey and it is roughly 90% of the coaches. It is way out of control, and unbelievable that there is no oversight!
your kid does not get ice because he does not deserve ice. Coaches control it all, if you do not like your son's ice time, leave to another team the following year. The best advice I can give you is, say NOTHING and tell your son to work harder to EARN more ice time. The entitlement of parents and kids is already too high. Want equal ice? go play house league with a 1:30 shift length.

You know what?. Why don't we do that instead. 1:30 buzzer .

Then, there will be a new issue that, allstar johnny is always first out the gate. Everyone is focused on Equal and guess what... that is not how life works. exceptional talent gets the lions share, IN EVERYTHING in life.

The issue is all the Unathletic talentless loser parents that complain. They think my johnny would be the best if he got that kids ice time, but in reality the kid stinks. They then create a wimp complainer, who no one can stand. the type of parent to rip their kid off the bench half way through and game or quit mid season.

we need to move on in society. stop pandering to these unspectacular humans that have a voice by being a victim. know your role, if you don't like your position work hard and take someones job.
They're children you psycho.

And if you picked him for your team, you play him. You think he stinks? Then do your job and develop him, inspire him, motivate him, COACH HIM so that he's not a liability when he's on the ice. There's no buyers remorse.

And if you defy the rules and don't give him equal ice time, you'll get fired or you'll get punished and maybe you'll be the one to quit half way through the season.

How's that for "how life works"?

And parents reading this, here's the best advice that I can give. If the coach isn't giving your kid a fair amount of ice time, don't sit in silence, document it and report him.
Lot to unpack here...........................

-just because you picked someone for your team, doesn't mean they are good, I know of multiple AA & BB teams where they had combined tryouts and for 32-34 spots, they had 37 tryout, you are basically taking the best of the worst to fill out your roster. Coaches try their best to hide them but during critical moments of the game, you're riding the pine. Parents needs to be more honest about this. Coaches will play their best kids in crucial situations.

-equal ice time at a competitive level does not compute for me, sorry, you have to earn your ice time. I get that you are paying $4000+ to play but it's competitive and there are standings so coaches, players, parents, all want to win. We have sort of taken winning out of all minor sports and you should be happy to be part of a team. Coaches reputations are on the line and you sure as heck would want him fired if he played everyone equally and lost every game

-the life lesson here is that nothing is given, everything is earned and that nothing is ever fair

-if there are issues with the coaches, you need to document it and send it to the president of your association but you must get other parents to document their concerns as well. Ran in to this this past year where at an annual meeting, multiple parents started complaining about a coach and the executive was dumbfounded because it was the first time hearing about it
It's irrelevant if it computes with you or not. It computes with Hockey Canada and those are the rules until the kids are older than 12.
Guest

Re: Fair and Equal Ice-Time

Post by Guest »

At the lower levels yes, fair ice time is A OKAY. At AAA, it is what the coach decides goes, thats why they get paid.
Don’t like it? Drop down a level. Simple as that. The parents who have stars care 0 about this initiative, this is only for people who’s kid is not AAA caliber and they need to blame someone else for messing their son’s development up rather than lack of effort or athletic genes. Those parents are insufferable.
Guest

Re: Fair and Equal Ice-Time

Post by Guest »

Guest wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2024 3:45 pm At the lower levels yes, fair ice time is A OKAY. At AAA, it is what the coach decides goes, thats why they get paid.
Don’t like it? Drop down a level. Simple as that. The parents who have stars care 0 about this initiative, this is only for people who’s kid is not AAA caliber and they need to blame someone else for messing their son’s development up rather than lack of effort or athletic genes. Those parents are insufferable.
If you just pay to play, don't have to try out, then yes, fair ice time for all.

Anything you have to try out for is fair game. You try out knowing you have to earn your ice time and that you won't be on the ice in all situations until you earn it.

To me it's not a hard concept to understand.

Parents feel they have a say because they pay all that money and want little Johnny to play every 3rd shift. Maybe Johnny is not that good which is why he's not out killing penalties or taking a d zone draw up by 1 with :57 seconds left in the third.

Hockey would be 1000x better if parents weren't allowed to watch.
Guest

Re: Fair and Equal Ice-Time

Post by Guest »

Guest wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2024 3:57 pm
Guest wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2024 3:45 pm At the lower levels yes, fair ice time is A OKAY. At AAA, it is what the coach decides goes, thats why they get paid.
Don’t like it? Drop down a level. Simple as that. The parents who have stars care 0 about this initiative, this is only for people who’s kid is not AAA caliber and they need to blame someone else for messing their son’s development up rather than lack of effort or athletic genes. Those parents are insufferable.
If you just pay to play, don't have to try out, then yes, fair ice time for all.

Anything you have to try out for is fair game. You try out knowing you have to earn your ice time and that you won't be on the ice in all situations until you earn it.

To me it's not a hard concept to understand.

Parents feel they have a say because they pay all that money and want little Johnny to play every 3rd shift. Maybe Johnny is not that good which is why he's not out killing penalties or taking a d zone draw up by 1 with :57 seconds left in the third.

Hockey would be 1000x better if parents weren't allowed to watch.
A lot of miss information here -

1. Too many are equating equal playing time with being not competitive or not wanting to win. This could not be further from the truth , you are just not familiar with elite sports development !

2. A lot of “ earning it “ talk. What exactly does that mean consider none of these athletes are pro and the only one earning anything is the coach with a salary. If you mean earn it in the sense of hard work and want g by doing extra plus attitude then you are not really familiar with what is going on in AAA. Crappy attitude kids, that don’t particularly try hard at practices float around and get played extensively because they are the most mature and have a beard while others are pre puberty!
Coach wants to keep his job and parents want to win!

Honestly , there is a massive gap in elite sport development that too many parent have zero idea of how it works. You are being taken advantage of and are recycling hockey culture conversation which you thing to be true, they are not, I can 100% assure of that !
Guest

Re: Fair and Equal Ice-Time

Post by Guest »

Lot’s of opinions, here are some interesting viewpoints on the topic:
https://rsfperformance.ca/2023/10/from- ... -coaching/

https://www.elitehockeycanada.com/newsl ... nor-hockey

And mine:
If you don’t want to develop a kid, then don’t sign them up for the team.
If you need someone to cover the season’s costs, go fundraise.
If you are signing up to develop only your kid and friends, then stay off the ice.

We coaches need to set an example and many of us do. We don’t need the bad apples who lie, cheat, and steal ice-time from kids.
It’s time @Hockey Canada starts enforcing existing rules.
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